Due to the length of this material (and even this was a pared-down version), it's taken a bit longer than I would've ideally liked to get it posted. But turns out that may have been a blessing in disguise as some of what Paul touches on here has been brought to the fore due to developments at LFC over the past few days (cancellation of the PTS, alarming news on the state of the club's finances). It does seem that things work out for a reason.
In any event, I hope this will be of interest to those who are already members of the group, those who've had lingering questions and even to the doubters. To be proper, I will just post the disclaimer that no inference should be made that this is any sort of SOS "policy paper" - the opinions expressed here are Paul's and may or may not reflect that of the SOS management committee and/or the union's membership at large.
So with that out of the way, here we go.... My questions are in italics; Paul's responses are in normal text.
* * * * *
The first thing I did want to mention was the fact that SOS is backing the Steven Cohen boycott. I just wanted to know how that came about.
Obviously we picked it up via the various websites, including LFCNY. And also people on Red and White Kop and RAOTL had mentioned it. I think, as indeed I posted on the New York website, my immediate reaction was, “Don’t give him the oxygen or publicity.” But when you actually sit down and look at what he said, and you analyze the audience that he’s saying it to, you realize that you can’t let him get away with it. It’s people who are new to the sport, don’t know the history – and if that’s the only view they’re getting, then that becomes history. And clearly we couldn’t allow him to do that.
And I think that was also spurred by the fact that the hypocrisy of somebody who supports a club like Chelsea, whose fans ... their own chairman threatened to put them behind electric fences, so bad was their behavior at the time of the Heysel and Hillsborough disasters. Talk about pots and kettles.
So I would like to talk about SOS. I just wanted to get a sense of where you think things stand now... do you think the organization has gone through any “sophomore slump”, i.e., the initial buzz and excitement around the organization maybe tapered off a little bit? That because the protests have died down and you’re not as much in the public eye…how do you get the word out that yes, we are still here and yes, it’s still as important as ever to get involved?
The thing is I think there’s a model with any organization of this style that in that rush of euphoria and novelty, you take off and go up a very steep curve and you reach a point where you’re on a plateau. And it’s where you go from that plateau really. I think that’s been exacerbated by two things.
First of all, the impass with the owners ... they blame the credit crunch for all that. I’m sure it’s partially responsible but I think fundamentally they just haven’t got enough money to do what they said they were going to do. It was all about leverage and what have you.
The second thing is the fact that the team is doing relatively well has conspired to ... people are like, well, do we really want to rock the boat? And unfortunately, for a lot of people, it’s all about the here and now. Which is very indicative of modern society.
Well, since you mentioned the owners: one of the foremost aims [of SOS] was to rid the club of the owners. Has that changed at all? Or is there a sort of “wait and see” policy at this point?
That hasn’t changed one iota. We are firmly of the opinion that with the lies that they have told, they cannot be trusted. And I think that overwhelmingly – not just our members but overwhelmingly – Liverpool fans do not trust them. And I think that they’ve gone over a line that they can’t come back from no matter what they do.
Do you feel like the organization has had any impact in terms of not just perception but how future events unfold with the club being sold to new owners? Which new owners they might be versus some other set of owners that may not want to deal with some of the things that...?
I think so. I think anybody with two brain cells to rub together would look at what’s happened with the fans and go, well we’ve got to make sure we avoid those obstacles. And certainly we’ve had overtures from certain people who have claimed to be interested in buying the club to sound us out and see if we’d be interested in representation at various levels. I think they were being surprised by our answers! That we weren’t prepared to just be the dog in the corner getting our head patted; that we wanted considerably more than that. But yes, certainly – we’ve definitely had an impact in that respect.
You are here ostensibly to sign up new members to SOS; to spread the word about the organization. There’s been criticism leveled at the organization that maybe it’s not just about removing the two American owners but removing the influence of Americans, even as supporters. I would like to give you the floor to debunk that right now.
Nothing can be further from the truth! I think there are two elements to that.
First of all, history tells us that people from Liverpool have spread all over the globe over the last 200-300 years. And to say that people can’t be Liverpool fans because they don’t have an L4 postcode or don’t have the purple garbage bin is a bit silly. We also have to accept that we have now attracted a whole raft of new supporters, at least as a result of Istanbul and the popularity, particularly in the United States over the last five or ten years, of football.
So we’ve got two alternatives. We either pretend these people don’t exist ... poo poo them ... or we say, okay: if you want to support Liverpool, there are certain standards that go with that; that set us apart. And we would hope that they’re the reasons you support Liverpool. Not because we win lots of trophies but because we have a certain attitude to things and we go about things in a different way. And there’s lots of lighthearted stuff about wearing [replica] shirts and whatever, but that’s not what it’s about. It’s about having a bit more class and culture, and understanding where Liverpool Football Club has come from. And where it is and how it got there, and the values that are instilled in the club.
So not just embracing everybody but teaching them along the way.
I think in terms of New York, in general terms, there’s undoubtedly a bond that exists between the two cities that goes very deeply into I suppose the whole socio-economic history of the world over the last 150 years. So I’d say to fans that the two cities were intrinsically linked; where people started the journeys and made it the end of their journeys. And of course, New York is massively larger than Liverpool but I think there’s a strain of non-conformism and ....
Both considering themselves separate from the rest of the country; like we’re our own being.
Yes. So I think, particularly in New York, there’s a bond there.
How does an American benefit from joining SOS? Many people will say, “well, I’m on board with what you’re doing but in terms of what I get out of it ... I see the coaches to the games, I see the protests but I’m over here and can’t actively participate.” Not exactly a “what’s in it for me?” question, but it’s sort of distant from them. What does an American derive from joining?
I think there are several levels as to what can be done. First of all, we would obviously love to communicate with people and give people information, because we’ve gone beyond the stage now where we just tell everybody where we’ve gone and what we’ve done with things. I mean there are certain things we only tell our members. Likewise, it’ll only be our members that we consult with.
And I would like to think that now that we’ve got a duly democratically-elected committee, we now have an overseas liaison officer, we’re looking to him – or the overall management committee – to get a network in place, across the world, of supporters/members who can feed into the organization.
But also I think in terms directly of what’s in it for them, if they come to the UK ... first of all, we are negotiating with Thomas Cook. The existing packages could be more attractive than they currently are for home games. On tickets, we’re looking to a more equitable share of tickets, particularly when the allocation goes up with the new stadium. If and when we get a new stadium! And talking to Ian Ayre, he clearly is not happy with the current structure.
So I think there’s a whole host of ways there and clearly we’ve established a position with the club where we can speak on behalf of our members, and we’ve gotten a number of tangible results for our members.
As you mentioned it, one of the criticisms was we’re not hearing enough of what’s going on, getting emails every couple of months, membership packets being slow to get out.... Are you saying that what you have in mind is maybe satellites of SOS to deal with some of these issues?
Clearly we need to step our game up – you have to remember we’re all volunteers doing this in our spare time. But that is what we have to do: if we raise people’s expectations, we have to meet those expectations. And clearly, I think we cannot run a global organization as fifteen people in Liverpool. It has to be something we can grow organically across the globe.
The whole concept of unions - they’re not really looked on that favorably over here anymore. I know it’s changed in the UK as well, but I know people hear the word “union” and sort of say, “why?” And for something like this, as opposed to something around work issues, people would say, alright - is there a hidden agenda here? For those who look upon the whole concept of why this organization exists with skepticism, why – in your own words – would you say SOS is needed?
I think there’s been a fundamental swing away, but I think the pendulum is about to swing back. Some of the things that are happening – I mean, we’ve all bought into this “corporate good”, “corporate responsibility”, “big firms aren’t bad” … just the way people are being treated in this global economy, people are starting to turn and say, “Well, hang on ... maybe the unions weren’t wrong after all!” So, in one respect, I think it’s starting to swing back again.
We looked long and hard at this idea of a union. First of all, Liverpool remains a strong working-class community. I think we still aspire to those basic social democrat / social justice principles that lay behind unions. We’re not talking about big bosh unions here, like we’ve all seen the excesses of both in the United States and in the UK in different forms. We’re talking about the more pure form of a union, which is about the good of all rather than the few.
And I think people actually, if they look beyond the politics and the brainwashing people have had about unions over the last generation, it’s actually something where they think, “That’s not a bad thing; I can get something out of that.”
That actually leads perfectly into my next question, which is the club obviously has a fan base that’s worldwide now: people of different languages, different cultures, different ethnicities, races, different social classes, certainly politics … it’s all across the board. Unions usually existed within a small framework or at least a common shared purpose. How do you get such a disparate population on board with a shared sense of ideals when it’s all across the map?
With a great deal of difficulty is the answer to that!
Again, two things. One is that broader idea: buying into the values and “the Liverpool way.” Actually, I think in some ways “the Liverpool way” is a bit of an albatross around the club’s neck in one respect. But those values – that’s what people are buying into, whether that’s Istanbul, whether that’s the Kop, whatever it is ... unique atmosphere ... whatever. That’s what it is. That we can get people to buy into and understand.
But it’s a process and you also have to break out of this parochial .... Liverpool was the “Capital of Culture” last year; Liverpool to me has always been the “Capital of Contrariness”! You know, Liverpool’s a port, it’s an outward-facing place. You don’t go anywhere without meeting a Scouser. They’re very gregarious people. But, put them back in their own habitat and they can be the most parochial people you could ever meet. As can anybody, of course! But you need to break out of that and expand people’s horizons. I mean, we make the mickey out of Evertonians about them all being from County Road: you don’t have to be from L4 to be part of that broader family.
There can be people who’ve had no connection with Liverpool; there can be people who came over here three generations ago ... whatever! It doesn’t matter. As long as they’ve made a connection, that’s all that matters. And we’ll grow with that.
Oh I agree. But it’s almost more a matter of economics. I mean, how do you get people who probably will never set foot in Anfield, who may never get to make the trip over ... whose only experience seeing Liverpool play will be watching them on the television ... to relate to issues around match tickets, issues around ticket allocation, travel and issues that supporters who go to away games encounter? The fan experience is obviously very different for people all around the world, so some of the issues that SOS is addressing ... they may feel like, “I’m with you in spirit but boycotting merchandise?” Or saying, “I’m not going to the match when it’s maybe my once in a lifetime opportunity to go?”
Well, I actually agree with that. I certainly was one that was particularly keen to see the boycott ended. Not least for the reasons that you’ve just said. And similarly, it’s why I’ve been opposed to boycotting matches, at least at this stage; I would never say never. Because if you boycott a match, there will be 45,000 other people who will turn up because it may be their one and only chance to do so. And we have to understand the real politics of that. So that’s fine; I understand that.
I think what we need to do – it goes back to what I said before. It’s not about join us because we’ll get you 10 quid off coach travel. As important as those things are, it is also about understanding those people watching matches, like Ian Ayre did in Malaysia before he came to this job. It came in for a lot of stick but the whole membership scheme – the “Belong” thing – what a great concept that is! “Belong!” To somebody in Manhattan, somebody in Malaysia, somebody in Malta – they can “belong”. They’ve got that bit of plastic. But it has to be more than that piece of plastic. That plastic has to have value.
We spoke before about the “brand”. The brand is only a real brand if it’s got values. And the Liverbird to me has always had values. Why should somebody like you from Chicago, now living in New York, attach any values to that bird? You know? But that’s what it’s about really. It’s about getting those people to – well not getting them to, but making it a compelling proposition for those people to have and buy into.
So are there plans from the SOS standpoint to sort of reach out and educate as you’ve talked about? Bringing them on board with “those values”? To not just press the issues but also about why the issues are important and why you should care?
Definitely. But the thing you have to be very careful about here is because one of the mistakes I think that the RTK made – and obviously a lot of the RTK are [SOS] members now – is it came across that they were preaching at people not to people. At people. I think that was a fundamental mistake, as well-intentioned as it was. They realized it sounded like they were dictating to people if you’re going to come to Liverpool, you’ve got to wear Adidas trainees and don’t wear colours, and that wasn’t what it was meant to be. And that was a shame and I think it alienated a lot of people. And I think we’ve tried our best to avoid doing that.
Interestingly, 30% of our membership is from Ireland, which is fantastic because it shows that we have got beyond that über-Scouser thing. Which is great.
Are there any big projects in the future?
We’ve got a massive one ... but I can’t tell you!
That’s good – give everyone a teaser!
An absolutely massive one. I would love to be able to tell people tomorrow. And if it comes off will blow out of the water the way English football is run.
I won’t ask for details but can you tell us what the timetable is at least on this? Before the end of the season? Summer?
The end of July.
I think one last question would be that for anyone who’s going to sign up tomorrow or within the near future, if they want to get more involved, what can they do?
What I’d like to see over here is ... I’d love to think that what’s happened with Steve Cohen would galvanize people to realize that action can make a difference. And to me, I’d like to think having had the success you’ve had over Cohen, that you’d be prepared to be enthused. To talk about unions, the old line is classic: “Unity is strength”. Proves what you can do if you all mobilize and work together. It’s dead easy to say “I don’t like him, I don’t like her” ... well, let’s just get on with it and concentrate on the bits that we can actually agree on.
* * * * *
For become a member or for more information, please visit http://www.spiritofshankly.com.
Posts
